tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post9073665107784425457..comments2024-03-29T18:17:34.956+11:00Comments on Thinking Out Aloud: The Medieval Machine: The Industrial Revolution of the Middle Ages (2)Lorenzohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00305933404442191098noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-28086643922532018392018-06-15T17:06:27.143+10:002018-06-15T17:06:27.143+10:00My pleasure. And Jean Gimpel is worth re-acquainti...My pleasure. And Jean Gimpel is worth re-acquainting oneself with.Lorenzohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00305933404442191098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-4599366498609083172018-06-13T02:11:49.869+10:002018-06-13T02:11:49.869+10:00A brilliant summary and exposition. This one I'...A brilliant summary and exposition. This one I'll be re-reading many times. <br /><br />I wish I had you at my side, Lorenzo, back at uni in the 80s when I was a nitwit and had no comeback to my prof's trashing of Gimpel. I think I still have the original soft cover edition somewhere. Avi Barzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17955422074058727195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-25185783748770617742010-11-16T21:28:30.158+11:002010-11-16T21:28:30.158+11:00The Rhomanoi (i.e. Greek Romans) absorbed a seriou...The Rhomanoi (i.e. Greek Romans) absorbed a seriously anti-commercial mindset. There is a great book to be written exploring the parallels in the Venetian/Genoese interaction with the Eastern Romans and the British et al interactions with the Qing, the parallels are striking. They also did not have the competitive pressures effect you had in the West--an effect which is stronger when it is within an overarching culture rather than between cultures, since the communication barriers are so much lower.<br /><br />Various folk have pointed out much "Arab" flowering was really Arabic-language flowering. The Sunni/Shia point is a new one on me though. That gets complicated though -- the Fatimids were Shia, for example,Lorenzohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00305933404442191098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-43045615666099181032010-11-16T18:30:41.674+11:002010-11-16T18:30:41.674+11:00There really is a TONNE of material out there that...There really is a TONNE of material out there that still hasn't been seriously subject to scholarship. I got really interested in the whole "cross cultural" transmission thingy; especially Science. <br /><br />1. I wanted to explore a hypothesis about the role played by Byzantium, especially given that all the late Middle Ages advances in Science took place in the West, but - as far as I know - little in Byzantium.<br /><br />2. I really wanted to press and publicize just how LITTLE the Sunni Arab world contributed to Islam's Golden Age; that is was overwhelmingly PERSIAN Shia - Twelvers/Ismailis - who both translated and were responsible for any advances. I imagine that inside S.Arabia there is - or was - a tonne of material that would bear this hypothesis out. But even outside, there is still masses of stuff. If you want to be a scholar forced to live under a pseudonym to avoid the splodies. ;)Peter Pattonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-8645052868348771202010-11-08T10:42:03.974+11:002010-11-08T10:42:03.974+11:00Well yes. One of the virtues of the medieval perio...Well yes. One of the virtues of the medieval period is that there is not a lot of such "scholarship".Lorenzohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00305933404442191098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-62987329941957893912010-11-07T19:49:26.506+11:002010-11-07T19:49:26.506+11:00It's just that it is such like fucking WOW cla...It's just that it is such like fucking WOW claim, and from what I gather based on discovery of hard evidence. That is, it doesn't appear to be 'merely' a clever twist on the 'narrative'. I was really, really into all this Islamic Science and the Scientific Revolution stuff, but clearly I had moved on before this book was published.<br /><br />One really does need a bath after reading all that revolting French leftist Stalinist PC outrage, doesn't one!?Peter Pattonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-83728015829928294352010-11-07T19:37:02.323+11:002010-11-07T19:37:02.323+11:00Aiding to the spread of knowledge is part of why I...Aiding to the spread of knowledge is part of why I do this :)Lorenzohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00305933404442191098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-45890810997438812552010-11-07T17:34:02.965+11:002010-11-07T17:34:02.965+11:00Oops.
In the early 13th century with people like ...Oops.<br /><br /><i>In the early <b>13th</b> century with people like William of Moerbeke and Albert - "The Great" - Magnus who knew Greek.</i>Peter Pattonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-73932594708574438002010-11-07T16:00:58.273+11:002010-11-07T16:00:58.273+11:00VERY interesting. At one stage I considered writin...VERY interesting. At one stage I considered writing a PhD on this whole transcultural transmission of ancient works. I intended to focus on the period following Haluga Kahn's razing Bagdad and establishment of the Maragheh Ilkhanate and the fall of Constantinople. I was hoping to nail down the precise routes to Copernicus. But hey, I forgot to do it! :)<br /><br />When I first read your post, I was about to reply in agreement that there was never a 'Berlin Wall' between Byzantium and the West, and that challenges to the Latin translations from Arabic began in the early 12th century with people like William of Moerbeke and Albert - "The Great" - Magnus who knew Greek, and he eventually went on to teach Thomas Aquinas and start clearing up Averroes' errors. But then I clicked on your links. Fine with the post-Crusader states - Latin Empire - and also we can add the earlier recapture of Sicily.<br /><br />BUT, I was NOT familiar with this Sylvain Gouguenheim and thesis of Greek trained/speaking Scholastics actually living and translating original Greek documents slap bang in the middle [or a bit to the side] of Paris as early as the mid 12th century!!!! <br /><br />I am going to start by saying "I don't believe it" just based on my understanding of how natural philosophy developed at the Universities of Paris, Oxford, Bologna, and Padua in the 12/13th centuries. <br /><br />In particular my understanding of precisely which parts of Aristotle's natural philosophy Stephen Tempier was those parts which were largely errors made by Averroes, and particularly how much time Tempier spends condemning Averroes. If Averroes' influence was still so great on teaching Aristotle that suggests no direct translations from the Greek. After all, if this thesis is correct, they had over a century to make their way to the University of Paris!<br /><br />So thanks for that. I shall go and buy that book <i>toot sweet.</i> Maybe it will remotivate me to write that thesis. :)Peter Pattonnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-5658714259010624682010-11-07T13:35:54.698+11:002010-11-07T13:35:54.698+11:00The point about the Arabs is well taken, though th...The point about the Arabs is well taken, though they were not the only source of translations of Greek classics: the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Empire" rel="nofollow">Latin Empire</a> was also an important source, particularly the work of <a href="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_de_Venise" rel="nofollow">Jacques de Venise</a> (discussed <a href="http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3732" rel="nofollow">here</a>).Lorenzohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00305933404442191098noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2197051945822486684.post-47715568883303108572010-11-07T12:56:32.190+11:002010-11-07T12:56:32.190+11:00I explain the differences between the 12th and 15t...I explain the differences between the 12th and 15th centuries by noting the Arabs were not interested in the Greek works on political philosophy, ethics, aesthetics, and particularly not interested in poetry or other literature, including historiography. <br /><br />So in the 12th century, the only Greek works which filtered back to the West were Latin translations of Arab translations of Syriac/Persian translations of Sanskrit/Greek works. And only then of Aristotle's natural philosophy. Many of the Arab translations were very bad, often Platonizing Aristotle! However, these works of Aristotle's were enough to add rocket fuel to western European knowledge.<br /><br />The whole reason for the 15th century Renaissance was scholars and clergy fleeing the Islamic Turkish hordes about to capture Constantinople, brought all the old Greek (and many Roman) texts, most of which had been left alone for centuries gathering dust. Once they arrived in the west, not only could all the poor Arab translations be corrected, but whole new genres arrived, such as poetry [including tragedy] and historiography. One of the great treasure hunts in the 15th century was to track down the other lost books of Polybius, which much to the loss of us all, failed.Peter Pattonnoreply@blogger.com